tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17759756.post8464325790097701600..comments2023-10-30T02:03:56.081+13:00Comments on Capitalism Bad; Tree Pretty: Free SpeechMaiahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17212711843307060731noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17759756.post-32327757596050306352006-10-29T12:35:00.000+13:002006-10-29T12:35:00.000+13:00Some capital is mobile George; but not that tied u...Some capital is mobile George; but not that tied up with farm work, with the service industry, with roads and repairs, etc etc etc. These are the arenas in which wages have dropped the most in recent years in America - and that is largely because of increased competition for these jobs from illegals. Open borders benefit the rich and hurt the poor - be they Mexican or US - for they are increasingly in competition with each other...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17759756.post-39297221106340640652006-10-28T19:39:00.000+13:002006-10-28T19:39:00.000+13:00A wander over to Anarchia and a look at the commen...A wander over to Anarchia and a look at the comments thread might be instructive.<br /><br />I've actually thought the opposite 123 - when capital is mobile, it can go where it gets the best rate of return. Labour is unable to do the same.GZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07756723544792981390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17759756.post-3323741807982966762006-10-27T03:29:00.000+13:002006-10-27T03:29:00.000+13:00Oh dear. Even by the lacklustre intellectual stand...Oh dear. Even by the lacklustre intellectual standards of this blog, this is a ridiculous post. If a bunch of Chistians decided to shout down a lesbian speaker at a university event, would Maia still be defending this as freedom of speech? I think not. And why not, one might ask? Surely when it comes to freedom of speech - necessarily a universal right - what is good for the goose is good for the gander.<br /><br />And as for open borders - those that lose the most from illegal immigration in the US are the very working class Maia claims elsewhere to be in staunch solidarity with. They are the ones who must endure competition from people willing to work for less than the minimum wage. Open borders are great if you're a capitalist business owner; not so if you're a blue-collar worker.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17759756.post-86673721584263655512006-10-26T23:17:00.000+13:002006-10-26T23:17:00.000+13:00the best way to deal with facists is to tell them ...the best way to deal with facists is to tell them they are unwelcome but not to make any more of a fuss than you need to to make sure they are not welcome.<br /><br />The problem is that nazis nazis laregly because of this sort of confrontation from people they hate and disproportionate fear and panic they seem to engender in those same people.<br /><br />The left can see so easily that these sorts of strategies dont work with other groups but they are suckers when it comes to nazis.<br /><br />---<br /><br />As to the limits of free speach I think shouting poepel down is generally bad straegy unless you are actually wrong.<br /><br />Ofcourse sometimes you are wrong, and maybe it will be required for you to win the day - don't expect the otherside to be happy about it though.<br /><br />GNZAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17759756.post-85770212512650531452006-10-26T15:57:00.000+13:002006-10-26T15:57:00.000+13:00I have come to believe that socailists and fasicis...I have come to believe that socailists and fasicists do not believe in free speach, although they do demand that they have the right to freedom of speach.<br /><br />If you shout down a speaker are that speaker has been denied their right to freedom of speach, and then you have then become the oppressor. This should not be all that surprising as both socalists and fascists are just diferent sides of the same coin. <br /><br />TerryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17759756.post-27559287727935565082006-10-26T09:14:00.000+13:002006-10-26T09:14:00.000+13:00As Raymond F refers above;
surely the right to fre...As Raymond F refers above;<br /><i>surely the right to free speech is really an implied right to hear other points of view</i><br />By shouting down someones speech you affect others rights to listen - and more importantly their right to decide.<br /><br />You would apparently see the situation as described in Orwell's 1984 to be ideal. No need to shout down that which is universally agreed.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07445205718545851348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17759756.post-68530537249653148092006-10-26T09:11:00.000+13:002006-10-26T09:11:00.000+13:00Jose - you explain a perfect situation of why shou...Jose - you explain a perfect situation of why shouting down a speaker is generally a deplorable act. <br /><br />Most people I have had a reasoned discussion with over what Wayne Mapps bill was <i>actually</i> going to do have changed their stance from being anti the bill to at least indifferent.<br /><br />Your blinkered ideological stance to shout down what probably would have been a reasoned speech to allow people to actually make their own <i>informed decision</i> shows the stupidity of the action.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07445205718545851348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17759756.post-47005880047463400862006-10-25T17:39:00.000+13:002006-10-25T17:39:00.000+13:00I agree with Maia's comments. I have on many occas...I agree with Maia's comments. I have on many occasions shouted people down during speechs. One of the most memorable was at the 90 day bill protest where Wayne Mapp was forced to leave the podium by the whole crowd. I have very little sympathy for those in power who oppress others, and expect to beable to justify it.<br /><br />However, I have my boundaries and nazi's are one of them. Mostly for all of the reasons Maia articulated. But also because alienation for skin heads is often shown by acts of violence. It is often not those at anti-fa demos (in welli atleast) who become their victims. Its people like my family who have been beaten up, or my friend whose house was broken in to and trashed(thankfully they weren't home), or my friend's friend who was stabbed to death in a carpark.<br /><br />JoseAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17759756.post-68790013182601323642006-10-25T12:57:00.000+13:002006-10-25T12:57:00.000+13:00It is also an incredibly ironic stand point coming...It is also an incredibly ironic stand point coming from someone who heavily moderates comments on their blog.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07445205718545851348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17759756.post-59718069472368031352006-10-24T16:42:00.000+13:002006-10-24T16:42:00.000+13:00"Shouting down a speaker isn't interfering with fr..."Shouting down a speaker isn't interfering with free speech; it is free speech."<br /><br />I don't know about you, but when I see somebody trying to make a point and having a bunch of hecklers drown him/her out with their shouting, my sympathy's all with the one trying to make a point. It may be free speech to drown somebody else out, but it's also tactically completely counter-productive.Psycho Milthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00779500926576047736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17759756.post-27841510686535372702006-10-24T15:26:00.000+13:002006-10-24T15:26:00.000+13:00Freedom of speach applies only to those who agree ...Freedom of speach applies only to those who agree with us.<br /><br />A Hitler<br />J StalinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17759756.post-46236236020327673172006-10-24T12:00:00.000+13:002006-10-24T12:00:00.000+13:00I wasn't comfortable about the disruption of the M...I wasn't comfortable about the disruption of the Minute-Men. What if a group decided that what you sincerely and in good faith believe was hate speech and disrupted your planned speaking event? <br /><br />It's one thing to voice your protest outside, to educate and spread your rebuttal to their ideas, it's another thing to actually get in their face and harass them while they are politely making their point.Muerkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00983180202172098977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17759756.post-9518946889834089132006-10-24T10:34:00.000+13:002006-10-24T10:34:00.000+13:00Reading the Maps has an interesting article on the...Reading the Maps has an interesting article on the protest that confronted the right-wing Minutemen group.<br /><br />http://readingthemaps.blogspot.com/2006/10/academic-unfreedom_09.htmlSkylerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06868954885230155638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17759756.post-87335403783889397022006-10-24T10:22:00.000+13:002006-10-24T10:22:00.000+13:00Just for interest/information - The minute-men tha...Just for interest/information - The minute-men that patrol the US-Mexico border are *not* officialy sanctioned by the government, and are not under US law allowed to take any direct action, violent or otherwise against anyone illegally crossing the border. They are only permitted to inform the border patrol who take action themselves.(However there have been a number of violent incidents that appear to have been tolerated by both border patrol and the police.)<br /><br />Interestingly enough there is also a smaller and less well reported group of minute-men who police the US-Canada border as well. They are typically armed with a folding chair, a thermos of coffee and a copy of the USA today, and should be considered extremely sad.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17759756.post-48173422676634393372006-10-24T09:02:00.000+13:002006-10-24T09:02:00.000+13:00Interesting points
But how would you feel if you a...Interesting points<br />But how would you feel if you as an listener at a speech and could not hear the speaker because of protest....would that be interfering with your right to hear another point of view, surely the right to free speech is really an implied right to hear other points of view<br />Raymond FAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17759756.post-21640873058183328032006-10-24T08:31:00.000+13:002006-10-24T08:31:00.000+13:00"But there's never any purpose to the anti-fascist..."But there's never any purpose to the anti-fascist demonstration except to piss the nazis off."<br /><br />"as there seems to have been a distinct lack of political analysis at the counter-protest."<br /><br />You missed a (brief) conversation about this last night - suffice to say that while this may have been true for some of the people present, it most certainly is not accurate for those that organised the protest. I, for one, had some very specific (both short and long term) goals in mind with that protest, which seem to be well on the way to being met. I can expand on this next time I see you if you're interested (though you'll probably have to remind me).Asherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01782227406470450089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17759756.post-2795221376531839642006-10-24T05:48:00.000+13:002006-10-24T05:48:00.000+13:00I feel the same way. We had a group on campus las...I feel the same way. We had a group on campus last year that was strongly opposed because of it's hate speech. What did we do? Talk to people and circulate a petition saying that we as a campus would not tolerate hate speech of any kind. (I was there all day talking to people about the petition and the group and collecting signatures.)<br /><br />The people I had the most problem with were ACLUer's who said that they didn't want to limit anyone's free speech, though in the US hate speech is a crime. Funny that.lost clownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02751161198550585778noreply@blogger.com